I hear ya man I was devastated too when I learned some of this information.. there's even more that I'm not saying but I really don't want this thread to go in that direction. I was merely trying to say you can get cheaper decks on my site now and was trying to be transparent as to where they were made. Almost every product you buy anywhere has a "Made in ____" on the tag or printed somewhere on the product. Fingerboards (other than Tech Deck) seem to be an exception, but everyone would be pissed if the country of origin was actually printed on every fingerboard product lol.

am I the only one that doesn't see what the fuck is wrong with getting graphic foils printed in china when they then get them back to germany, put them on berlinwoods with their own machines, file them off and finish them with their own machines, etc etc.. Not to mention design them themselves? It's not like they've searched 'fingerboard graphics', ordered 1000, and started using them as their own. Like it's no different from the fact that I bought stickers from the US recently in my mind. omg outsourcing, kill me.

Perhaps people get 'china' wrong, so here's a little explanation of how I personally see it:
I don't hate china. Seems an interesting country. China products happen to be made in china but that's not why I hate them, I hate the thoughtless, effortless, bullshit of 'go to aliblablabla.com, type in fingerboards, spend a bit of money, wait a few weeks, start selling on ebay'. What's wrong with designing your own graphics, paying a printer to print them for you, then when they come to you using them? What difference does it matter what country that's done in, so long as there's thought involved? Or should I buy stickers at 3x the price just because they're from the UK?

I don't see how putting graphics on china decks is lying either. Maybe make up some new graphics, then say they're china decks but with graphics applied by homewood? Or what ever you do to make them not the generic shit everyone's selling, I still believe you should do something when you have the time, skills, and (hopefully) passion to put out the best products you can on all levels of what you sell. You're entitled to disagree with me I guess.

End of the day, even if these things about berlinwood to levels beyond what justin has said here I've heard are true.. doesn't really make buying in standard china decks any better. Don't hide behind someone else doing something shit as an excuse to do something shit yourself

yeh thats what i was thinking kerry, berlinwood and blackriver im sure took alot of time and effort to design the right shapes and combinations to get the right decks and graphics , so if the graphics are done in china its probably because either they do a better job or its cheaper (better for the buyers)

If it makes you any happier Justin, my next deck after a Pure I plan to order in a couple weeks is going to be a homewood one.

JRskatr wrote:

Now don't get me wrong sometimes outsourcing is necessary because it's physically impossible to do everything yourself. That's how businesses increase profits. But I just sometimes get frustrated how people act like certain companies make everything themselves in-house, as if they are up 24/7 gluing and sanding decks and machining wheels, and building ramps and sewing shirts and bags and what not. Almost every time it's being OUTSOURCED!! And some companies are perfectly ok with outsourcing 100% of their products, and those companies are stealing much needed business from me, Todd, BW, and other companies.

I've always had the opinion that china products was a nice way to make a business affordable. As an example, i've sold china trucks and tape along with my homemade decks to make sure i could keep the price of my decks low, and get my profit from the china stuff instead.

Other reasons that makes it fair to do is that there is a huge pricegap between china trucks and other trucks avaible. Foam tape has always been an outsourced operation. Also, these two china items are of fairly high quality.


However when it comes to decks the price gap is much smaller. There is a load of upcoming companies, good and bad, and a lot of them sell decks between $10 and $20. And then you become the company that is stealing much needed business from them.



And about the whole outsourcing thing, i don't think it's always bad. As long as the product is developed by the company it self, and not by some chinese toy manufacturers. And if it is done because it wouldn't be done otherwise.

Haha Kerry I really wish you had read what I posted before criticizing me again, kinda hurt my feelings a bit but it's cool maybe you missed it. No worries.

JRskatr wrote:

Sorry for double post I posted that before reading everything else.
Oh and one last thing, since 2007 I've been the only employee in my company basically. My parents help when they can with stickers or helping me keep track of expenses, but I'm still in charge of keeping track of sales, posting on Facebook, twitter, etc., filming videos, editing videos, uploading videos, taking pictures of decks, uploading pictures, shipping and packaging, answering personal and business emails, responding to YouTube messages and comments, coming up with park designs, hosting events, sponsoring events, sponsoring a team of riders, and last of all (assuming I didn't forget anything just now), making every deck myself by hand! Add in a full-time teaching job which I did the past 3 years and it's not exactly the easiest thing to do, and then add in a bunch of new companies who are just buying everything pre-made from China and reselling them which basically undermines everything I have done since I started Homewood, and then you get into the situation where selling China decks isn't such a bad idea. And now you want me to make new graphics just for these specific decks that I didn't even make? C'mon you're killin' me Smalls! lol.

And I really wish I could say everything Todd and I know, I really do. There are a few things you still don't know Kerry that I haven't told you. But I just would feel horrible revealing these certain secrets I just can't do that.. But what you're saying isn't entirely true. If it is then someone is lying to me and Todd.. but that just isn't likely.

Having said that, dude Kerry I agree with all the points you made! PLEASE understand that. Everything you said, I agree with. I can't stress that enough. We're on the same side here man! I was lucky to find sources for graphics that were both in my state and in another state so still everything for graphics I was able to have done in the US, but obviously the US is a huge country so it's a little different. I don't knock BW for outsourcing the graphic printing to China if they legitimately couldn't find it anywhere else. But there's a little more to the story than that and I just can't say what because I don't want to put some of my favorite companies out of business.

I will however not feel bad from taking business back from Phancy Fingers, 4CFB, Star Fingerboards, Shacker Fingerboards, and the other companies that are just buying decks and putting their name on it as if they made them. Foam tape is different because no one knows how to make them lol but anyone can make decks so it's just lazy and profit-hungry to not even attempt to make them yourself. Again business is business many would see nothing wrong with trying to put everyone out of business by trying to sell the cheapest products possible (That's the Walmart business plan in fact), and again if I had all the time in the world to make graphics and slap them on these China decks I would definitely consider it, but I do NOT have time at all for the reasons I stated in my quote. Everything I know about photography, video editing, websites, everything, I had to learn by myself. I don't have the luxury of hiring people or having my team riders help work for me and take a lot of the responsibility off my chest. There's only 1 team rider that even lives in my state and he's still 45 minutes away and has his own things going on. So since 2007 I'm still doing everything by myself. If you want to fly here and stay with me for a week and make some graphics for me that'd be awesome (not to mention all the sick edits we could film haha)!! But right now I just can't do it but I'm not gonna use that as an excuse to let the other companies win and put me out of business. Again it was a business decision, not one I wanted to make but I am running out of options.

Just wait til Todd and I come out with our own trucks. That'll show everyone! haha. No hard feelings though man you know I got nothin but love for you buddy!

wow this has been an interesting thread and iv enjoyed reading it, I think you have made some good points and I certainly havent been put off supporting homewood, id love to add one of your handmade decks to my collection at some point!
it will be interesting to see if any other smaller companys start doing a similar thing, I have nothing against china products atall if they are sold for the price there worth, I personally dont think a china deck is worth £5 at most, and thats a pretty good profit if they only cost £1 in the first place.

it would be cool if a company specialised in custom graphics on china decks, that would kinda be worth it cuz i bet loads of people always want there own designs on decks, but i guess thats easier said than done

Justin, what exactly a out making decks kills your hands? Is it the rounding the edges? While I can see how that might take a toll a little, maybe it's the fact that it isn't the most practical way? Have you considered using a metal nail file, then final sanding with a high grit sanding sponge? With the sponge, you won't need to worry about getting into little dip crevices. The sponge does it for you. And as for using the nail file, it's a lot easier to get a hold of and stuff and it takes less effort. Just a hint of advice from someoe who knows what it's like to have your hands get the shit kicked out of them.... My fingers have been bruised pretty badly from doing countersinks by hand.... But I've come up with a better method to countersink so I don't have that anymore. I don't know if this will help or anything, but yeah, maybe take it into consideration little title bit. Your decks are probably the nicest I've ever come across... I don't regret paying 37.50 for mine! Everyone should get a homewood.

No problem with china products for me. They are decent and cheap. What I have a hard time understanding is why this "scene" is openly making a double standard. 5 out of 7 days a week almost I can be either on the message boards or chat and someone is talking shit on china products. All you gotta do is write a sob story fucking post and you guys change your morals and opinions that every other day you feel "so strongly" about. Everyones opinion goes from china stuff sucks and hates on companys that put there own graphics on china board, but then say oh these are fine. These don't even have any graphics that I can see, so 4corner, etc are doing more than homewood is. Is it because Homewood is just a fucking cool company? They get a pass to do anything? I could see that because it is a cool fucking company. Or maybe I should just write a story about how I need money for my family and start a china company myself....as long as I write that its for a good cause and make you guys feel like I really need it to better my life its all good then? Everyone should stick to there beliefs is what I think. I don't mean any hate towards homewood, as I said I don't mind china products (although homewood price on those decks is a little steap) I own many china fingerboard products, and have and will always be a believer in affordable products. And because of this I am very OK with ordering from 4corner. Hell they even have free shipping. But again as most of you have expressed (maybe not here today, but definetly in the past) You will not support companies that do this, yet here you are, basically saying its fine if you explain why, and its even more fine if you make some graphics.

i completely understand and know what justin is talking about, everything in the fingerboard scene isn't what everyone thinks it is. if you want to find out for your self, do some digging youll be very surprised on what you find.

Nathan you are missing the point.

It's not china products that are the wrong thing, it's china companies. And by china companies i mean companies that buy and resell chinese massproduced products with no effort at all.

When you buy china products from me or from Homewood, No Comply just to name a few, you invest in a company that will push fingerboarding forward and develop new products.

When you buy from a china company you invest in a company that will do nothing but have the latest chinese toy fingerboard avaible for an affordable price.


I don't agree with Justin's choice of selling china decks, but I'm not running his business and i understand his reason. Homewood makes great and unique decks so of course he can do more "bad" things than a new company before people get mad.

No I see the point quite clear mikkel. I just don't see the dignity in any double standard. If I believed china products were "killing" the scene as everyone claims it is I would not be backing this at all. If china is killing the scene so much but you guys are all embracing it and telling everyone "its ok if its for the right reasons" and then every kid sees that homewood, etc are carrying china companies thinks thats china is fine and buys it anyway. At the end of the day wouldnt that hurt the scene more? If even respected companies now carry china. What message is that sending the consumer? Well I guess chinas fine then, but I'd rather buy one for 5 dollers on ebay personally so where is the logic here? Anyways all im saying is if everyone has such strong opinions on how china is ruining fingerboarding, then have some fucking dignity and say that this is not cool. Basically everyone says china sucks so much but the only way to beat it is join it.....? Theres other ways guys, to all the deck makers out there.

Statements like everyone says this and everyone says that are't a strong basis for your argument.

Personally I feel cost/quality is the most important factor for making a purchase with supporting strong members of the scene as my second most important factor.

The idea that anything coming from China is automatically trash is outdated and pretty naive. There is an incredible array of manufacturers in China and the quality can go from cheap as hell to, oh I don't know, EVERY FUCKING APPLE PRODUCT.

Along with Nathan's good point, wouldn't you say that you also are now taking some of the sales back from the companies that have lower prices than yours, which you say are getting some of your sales? I s'pose this MIT not make much sense if any at all, but I think this is a bit hypocritical to say the least. I'm all for homewood, but if you're gonna sell a china deck for 10 bucks, do it right and slice it up a bit.. Or I'm gonna go on eBay and get a 32mm one for half the price, and with a piece of tape to add.

appleyard14 wrote:

No I see the point quite clear mikkel. I just don't see the dignity in any double standard. If I believed china products were "killing" the scene as everyone claims it is I would not be backing this at all.

There will always be a lot of sheeps in fingerboarding, as a lot of the fingerboarders are kids and kids are easily impressed and easy to force opinions down upon. And you're right, it seems that a lot of people are hating on the products instead of hating on the people that sell products without pushing fingerboarding further.

Quote :

If china is killing the scene so much but you guys are all embracing it and telling everyone "its ok if its for the right reasons" and then every kid sees that homewood, etc are carrying china companies thinks thats china is fine and buys it anyway. At the end of the day wouldnt that hurt the scene more? If even respected companies now carry china. What message is that sending the consumer? Well I guess chinas fine then, but I'd rather buy one for 5 dollers on ebay personally so where is the logic here? Anyways all im saying is if everyone has such strong opinions on how china is ruining fingerboarding, then have some fucking dignity and say that this is not cool. Basically everyone says china sucks so much but the only way to beat it is join it.....? Theres other ways guys, to all the deck makers out there.

This is one of my concerns aswell. Blackriver and Flatface have a huge ammount of followers and are (unfortunately) able to make these people think whatever they want them to think. They could have launched a "say NO to china decks" campaign to make the kids and the parents aware of the problem with this part of fingerboarding and that way increase their sales of their own decks.

Instead they chose the easy way, and resell these products themself.

This, along with Homewood (and others) selling china decks, will indeed signal to some that china decks are cool and most wont understand that they shouldn't buy them from a china company.

You all bring up good points, and I appreciate the adult civil discussion. Mikkel I agree with what you said here:

Mikkel S wrote:

It's not china products that are the wrong thing, it's china companies. And by china companies i mean companies that buy and resell chinese massproduced products with no effort at all.

I've stated in the past too that I don't really hate the fact that people in China make things. They're people too and a lot of the things they make are of great quality (like Ron said about Apple products).

What I'm not a fan of is someone claiming to be a true fan of fingerboarding, then starting a company and not making any of their own products. Decks are something anyone can make so there's not excuse to not even trying.

And I'm sorry but I disagree with everyone who thinks it would make everything ok to just put your own graphics on China decks. If you wanted to really support the scene you would seek out deck-makers who are avid fingerboard lovers themselves, and then put your graphics on THEIR decks. Putting them on China decks is just a cheap easy solution in my opinion and doesn't really make it any better that you're only buying from China to resell it on your site.

And Nathan if you only knew certain pieces of information you would be whistling a whole different tune.

Gunner: You're actually not my target market when I think about it when it comes to these Shop Decks. I'm targeting the people who are new to fingerboarding, which is what the other companies are doing when they advertise on Google and what not. And some of them charge more for the decks so we decided to price it right in the middle. I still am striving to be able to lower prices on the decks I make, which is more than I can say for some companies that are perfectly happy with charging a lot more than what I charge. Especially since not all of them are even made by them. I just wish these companies were up front about where their decks were made, instead of leading you all on and almost brainwashing people with their intense marketing.. Oh well maybe one day.

Again thank you everyone for being so cool and civil in this thread, and for those who have been so understanding.

Oh shit I'm sorry Gunner!!!! I totally forgot to address this my apologies!

The part that hurts my hands the most is using the palm sander. I explain it in my kickstarter video here: Click Here, go to 2:00 where I "square the kicks" with the palm sander.

The constant vibration of the palm sander is very damaging to your hands. The edge rounding doesn't hurt as bad but I'm still looking for better ways to do that too because it does hurt a little bit after a while. Thanks again too for your suggestions that is very generous of you to do that. I've tried the file but I don't think I've tried a sponge yet. I'm going to tackle that part of the process once I finish the shaping part. But you rock man seriously

I remember when I used to have to use broken skateboards to shape decks completely by hand... All from the sqaure shape they are in out of the mold... This is what i did, but it is just a little different, maybe it will help you? Maybe what you can do instead of using the vibrating sander, is take your belt sander (know you have one, saw it in your vid) keep it turned off, and just run the kicks along it to get rid of that weird angle they get from the router? I don't know if it's the most practical way, but it sure isn't as bad as the palm sanding thing. Sorry if this is starting to sound like spam or something, just an idea though.. :3

No not at all dude and I appreciate the ideas. I have tried what you said but it's really difficult to get an even sanding. I tried a bunch of different ways but the palm sander gives me the best results as of now. Once my kickstarter project ends though I'll solve the problem, then move on to the next problem lol. I may even offer decks with no rounded edges so that I can offer another deck at a lower price point instead of selling decks from China. I'd feel better anyways since they'd be decks I made myself.

Maybe you could mount the palm sander to that vice?

Let me add my worthless two cents of a flippin' novel on the situation. Cause I write books and crap....

What gets me is the jumping around, one day you're this, one day you're that mentality.

When it came up at first, it was horrible. Now, companies selling strictly china products, have become pretty well accepted for one simple reason so many people have said.

"if it's cheap and gets people in fingerboarding, who cares?"

So why is it ok for someone who has done nothing but line their wallets, to sell strictly mass produced products from a factory in china, but someone like Justin, or myself, who would decide to make a business decision to cater to those people who may come to our sites and say, I can't afford 30 dollars for a fingerboard, but I can swing 10, it becomes a problem?

It's a two way street. Sure, I've had my share of bad mouthing companies that strictly resell china products, and nothing else, and I beg your pardon, I'll keep on doing it, and take a number in line to kiss my ass if you have a problem with that....LOL...j/k but on the serious...

There is nothing wrong with legit established companies who have given back, helped progress fingerboarding, and built strong relationships with fingerboarders, adding value priced fingerboard products, regardless of where they are made, to their catalog.

If the main goal is to grow fingerboarding, wtf does it matter? I've sold these decks in the past, and no one said two shits.

And for what it's worth, Mike and myself were the first to "import" any chinese products, which were the old wide trucks. We both ordered them at the same time, and started selling them within days of each other, before anyone else did. What point I try to make with that, I really don't know..I just know I'm known to write a damn novel and I have full intentions of giving you what you came for....lol

I pondered a mah jong graphic with fingerboard tiles, for a graphic for the china decks. But decided to go with them blank as I did previously. Like Justin, I'm not about to put a No Comply graphic on a china deck, so they remain blank.

I've maintained my morals and principles since day one coming into fingerboarding, both as a fingerboarder, and a brand owner. The day I seen fingerboarding toss out the respect and values it once held, was the day part of it died for me. But I'm still here, because I absolutely love it, and will continue to do what I want, without regard to anything such as hate, slow market, or whatever. My blood runs 7 plies deep, and by the grace of God, whether I'm wanted or not, I'm not going no where...

As for Justin's comments about what we know, and what we are not going to disclose, I can confirm that. I'm not about to get involved any further. It's not my place. I can tell you, if you believe half of what you are told, you are living in the dark.

I can also confirm, Justin and I are working together developing pro trucks, that will absolutely NOT be made in china. We have a couple designs which are innovative, which can use any wheel from bearing less to dual, or centralized. Whether we have to suck it up and get licensing to handle high melt metals and do it ourselves, or we can find a USA manufacture to help or what, I can tell you, I'm making it my personal business along with Justin, to continue to develop the trucks and see them thru.

I can also tell you, the price is going to shock the shit out of everyone. I've done research for nearly two years on the subject. I know what things cost for the most part, and what kind of labor is involved. Given we would make them ourselves, you could expect a bit higher price, but there is a strong chance, regardless, you would be able to get 2 or more sets of our trucks, for the price of one from the other guy. But if we get so much shit about selling china decks, and we continue to struggle and have to bow out, until someone else comes along, your options would be, well, your other options for non tech deck or china trucks.

I'm more motivated now more than I have ever been. I been working on stuff, and keeping my damn mouth shut for months, which is odd for me, as everything I would previously work on, I'd blabber about it. I'm the sleeper now. And whether you lost respect for me because I chose to continue selling china boards as I previously done without any quabs from people, or you lost respect for Justin, it doesn't matter. But I can tell you, when we tell you what we are doing, and divulge minimal info about how or where we do it, you can take it to the bank, endorse it, and deposit it, because where fingerboarding as a whole may have lost it's morals and principles, I have not, nor will I.

Ultimately, we all have to make decisions as business/brand owners. I always ask people, think if straight china resellers took over, when you "wanted" a Homewood, or a No Comply, or a Redemption, guess what? Too bad, because the brands people said were doing no wrong by helping new fingerboarders get involved, could have well driven some of the original brands out of business. You get a 5 dollar ass china deck, and make it work. So if Justin or myself choose to sell value line decks, IE china decks, to ensure we can cater to more people, and have a better chance of sticking around, why the hell not?

As much as I have had beef with people in the past, say Jordan @ Redemption, and looking past all the drama, I actually was bummed when he said he went back to work full time and wouldn't be working on Redemption any more, and may well cease operations.

Fingerboarding to me, aside from the incredible friendships I've built, and great times at meet ups, it really boils down to this. There was a time when people had respect. Not only fingerboarders for other fingerboarders, but brand to brand. People seemed to have morals about what they did, and maintained a common bond of being here. Principles were held high, and people stayed careful to not walk on eggshells with other people, more specifically brand to brand. It's about who came about in 09 or so, and carved their brands into the stone that IS fingerboarding. All the good and the bad, is what makes being a brand owner, and person involved in fingerboarding, the greatest of times while in it. Seeing people fold, even if the reality is, it's a business and they are competition if you will, is not easy to stomach, for my good vibes of what fingerboarding once was, includes them, regardless of who they are.

It's amazing what a damn piece of paper with a picture of a dead president can do to people. And you can argue me till you are blue in the face(you meaning fingerboarding as a whole, any random person, not one specifically), money has ruined it. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with building a business and profiting, hell that's the American, errr...worldwide way. But people stopped giving a shit who they stepped on, lost their respect along the way, and ethics went out the door like a Finger Airboard doing 70kmh down the damn Autobahn...and that to me, is the saddest, and most damning strike to why fingerboarding has changed so much over the last year.

To me, that's the hardest pill to swallow, and it honestly pains me to see things gotten to where they have.

Well said as usual! haha. I wonder if everyone is this scrutinizing towards Apple or Dell or whatever brand of computer they're using to post on this forum on. Whether they write letters to Nike or Adidas or whatever clothes they wear, asking who makes the clothes and how much does it cost per item to make. I have a feeling no one really cares about that stuff, but somehow when it comes to fingerboarding everyone must disclose where they get their stuff and how much it costs. Yet they don't ask certain companies where their decks or wheels are made, or how much they cost to make. They choose to look the other way and get distracted by their YouTube videos. It's weird.

I've been transparent since day 1 where my decks are made, they're made right here at my house in Homewood, IL lol. Maybe if I start to outsource production I should keep it a secret as well and then use circumlocution and act as if I still make all of them myself since apparently it's accepted practice these days..

Gunner the last idea you mentioned I have thought about, but haven't yet tried. I will give it a go though soon, I hope it works!

I may delete this thread eventually because I don't to get people too bent out of shape about it, that's not why I posted this thread. I'll be more clandestine next time.

I'll say something short and sweet.

China products are not bad quality. Not as good of quality as legitimate decks but they are not bad quality. They are very good starting decks.

This is where those companies that sell purely China decks make their money. They sell the decks to starter boarders instead of those who have been boarding for months or years.

That stated, this is a good way to get your company into the competition with those mass production china businesses. You are able to ship out a mass production of decks to stay in competition with the china businesses.

So to simply state this, you are fighting fire with fire. It isn't bad to sell china decks. If you aren't selling them then all the china companies that are only out there to make money will be selling them and therefore making money that you could be using to continue your business.

^Thank you!! I couldn't agree more.